Bono: Grace over Karma
book excerpt
There have been a number of books written about U2
and their iconic frontman, Bono, arguably the world's most famous rock
star. But not till now has Bono himself come out to tell his own story.
In the new book,
Bono: In Conversation with Michka Assayas
(Riverhead Books), the rocker shares his thoughts on numerous topics
with a French music journalist and friend who has been with the band
virtually since the beginning. In a series of honest conversations
presented in Q&A format, Bono discusses, among other things, his
upbringing (including the death of his mother when he was a teen and
the ensuing rocky relationship with his father, who died just a few
years ago), U2's beginnings, his bandmates, his marriage, fatherhood,
his passion for social action, the effects of celebrity, and,
fittingly, his faith and how it intersects all of the above.
The following exchange between Bono and Assayas
took place just days after the Madrid train bombings in March
2004, an
act of terrorism that left 191 dead and more than 1,800 wounded. The
two men were discussing how terrorism is often carried out in the name
of religion when Bono turned the conversation to Christianity,
expressing his preference for God's grace over "karma," offering an
articulate apologetic for the deity of Christ, and giving a clear
presentation of the gospel message.
Bono: My understanding
of the Scriptures has been made simple by the person of Christ. Christ
teaches that God is love. What does that mean? What it means for me: a
study of the life of Christ. Love here describes itself as a child born
in straw poverty, the most vulnerable situation of all, without honor.
I don't let my religious world get too complicated. I just kind of go:
Well, I think I know what God is. God is love, and as much as I respond
[sighs] in allowing myself to be transformed by that love and
acting in that love, that's my religion. Where things get complicated
for me, is when I try to live this love. Now that's not so easy.
Assayas: What about the God of the Old Testament? He wasn't so "peace and love"?
Bono: There's nothing
hippie about my picture of Christ. The Gospels paint a picture of a
very demanding, sometimes divisive love, but love it is. I accept the
Old Testament as more of an action movie: blood, car chases,
evacuations, a lot of special effects, seas dividing, mass murder,
adultery. The children of God are running amok, wayward. Maybe that's
why they're so relatable. But the way we would see it, those of us who
are trying to figure out our Christian conundrum, is that the God of
the Old Testament is like the journey from stern father to friend. When
you're a child, you need clear directions and some strict rules. But
with Christ, we have access in a one-to-one relationship, for, as in
the Old Testament, it was more one of worship and awe, a vertical
relationship. The New Testament, on the other hand, we look across at a
Jesus who looks familiar, horizontal. The combination is what makes the
Cross.
Assayas: Speaking of bloody action movies, we
were talking about South and Central America last time. The Jesuit
priests arrived there with the gospel in one hand and a rifle in the
other.
Bono: I know, I know. Religion can be the enemy of God. It's often what happens when God, like Elvis, has left the building.
[laughs]
A list of instructions where there was once conviction; dogma where
once people just did it; a congregation led by a man where once they
were led by the Holy Spirit. Discipline replacing discipleship. Why are
you chuckling?
Assayas: I was wondering if you said all of that to the Pope the day you met him.
Bono: Let's not get
too hard on the Holy Roman Church here. The Church has its problems,
but the older I get, the more comfort I find there. The physical
experience of being in a crowd of largely humble people, heads bowed,
murmuring prayers, stories told in stained-glass windows …
Assayas: So you won't be critical.
Bono: No, I can be
critical, especially on the topic of contraception. But when I meet
someone like Sister Benedicta and see her work with AIDS orphans in
Addis Ababa, or Sister Ann doing the same in Malawi, or Father Jack
Fenukan and his group Concern all over Africa, when I meet priests and
nuns tending to the sick and the poor and giving up much easier lives
to do so, I surrender a little easier.
Assayas: But you met the man himself. Was it a great experience?
Bono: … [W]e all knew
why we were there. The Pontiff was about to make an important statement
about the inhumanity and injustice of poor countries spending so much
of their national income paying back old loans to rich countries.
Serious business. He was fighting hard against his Parkinson's. It was
clearly an act of will for him to be there. I was oddly moved … by his
humility, and then by the incredible speech he made, even if it was in
whispers. During the preamble, he seemed to be staring at me. I
wondered. Was it the fact that I was wearing my blue fly-shades? So I
took them off in case I was causing some offense. When I was introduced
to him, he was still staring at them. He kept looking at them in my
hand, so I offered them to him as a gift in return for the rosary he
had just given me.
Assayas: Didn't he put them on?
Bono: Not only did he
put them on, he smiled the wickedest grin you could ever imagine. He
was a comedian. His sense of humor was completely intact. Flashbulbs
popped, and I thought: "Wow! The Drop the Debt campaign will have the
Pope in my glasses on the front page of every newspaper."
Assayas: I don't remember seeing that photograph anywhere, though.
Bono: Nor did we. It seems his courtiers did not have the same sense of humor. Fair enough. I guess they could see the T-shirts.
Later in the conversation:
Assayas: I think I am beginning to understand religion because I have
started acting and thinking like a father. What do you make of that?
Bono: Yes, I think
that's normal. It's a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the
universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people,
but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between Grace
and Karma.
Assayas: I haven't heard you talk about that.
Bono: I really believe we've moved out of the realm of Karma into one of Grace.
Assayas: Well, that doesn't make it clearer for me.
Bono: You see, at the
center of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put
out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in
physics—in physical laws—every action is met by an equal or an opposite
one. It's clear to me that Karma is at the very heart of the universe.
I'm absolutely sure of it. And yet, along comes this idea called Grace
to upend all that "as you reap, so you will sow" stuff. Grace defies
reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of
your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I've
done a lot of stupid stuff.
Assayas: I'd be interested to hear that.
Bono: That's between
me and God. But I'd be in big trouble if Karma was going to finally be
my judge. I'd be in deep s---. It doesn't excuse my mistakes, but I'm
holding out for Grace. I'm holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the
Cross, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my
own religiosity.
Assayas: The Son of God who takes away the sins of the world. I wish I could believe in that.
Bono: But I love the idea of the Sacrificial Lamb. I love the idea that God says:
Look,
you cretins, there are certain results to the way we are, to
selfishness, and there's a mortality as part of your very sinful
nature, and, let's face it, you're not living a very good life, are
you? There are consequences to actions. The point of the death of
Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the world, so that what we
put out did not come back to us, and that our sinful nature does not
reap the obvious death. That's the point. It should keep us humbled… .
It's not our own good works that get us through the gates of heaven.
Assayas: That's a great idea, no denying it.
Such great hope is wonderful, even though it's close to lunacy, in my
view. Christ has his rank among the world's great thinkers. But Son of
God, isn't that farfetched?
Bono: No, it's not
farfetched to me. Look, the secular response to the Christ story always
goes like this: he was a great prophet, obviously a very interesting
guy, had a lot to say along the lines of other great prophets, be they
Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius. But actually Christ doesn't
allow you that. He doesn't let you off that hook. Christ says:
No.
I'm not saying I'm a teacher, don't call me teacher. I'm not saying I'm
a prophet. I'm saying: "I'm the Messiah." I'm saying: "I am God
incarnate." And people say:
No, no, please, just be a prophet. A
prophet, we can take. You're a bit eccentric. We've had John the
Baptist eating locusts and wild honey, we can handle that. But don't
mention the "M" word! Because, you know, we're gonna have to crucify
you. And he goes:
No, no. I know you're expecting me to come back with an army, and set you free from these creeps, but actually I am the Messiah. At this point, everyone starts staring at their shoes, and says:
Oh, my God, he's gonna keep saying this.
So what you're left with is: either Christ was who He said He was—the
Messiah—or a complete nutcase. I mean, we're talking nutcase on the
level of Charles Manson. This man was like some of the people we've
been talking about earlier. This man was strapping himself to a bomb,
and had "King of the Jews" on his head, and, as they were putting him
up on the Cross, was going:
OK, martyrdom, here we go. Bring on the pain! I can take it.
I'm not joking here. The idea that the entire course of civilization
for over half of the globe could have its fate changed and turned
upside-down by a nutcase, for me,
that's farfetched …
Bono later says it all comes down to how we regard Jesus:
Bono: … [I]f only we
could be a bit more like Him, the world would be transformed. …When I
look at the Cross of Christ, what I see up there is all my s--- and
everybody else's. So I ask myself a question a lot of people have
asked: Who is this man? And was He who He said He was, or was He just a
religious nut? And there it is, and that's the question. And no one can
talk you into it or out of it.
I like writing after a long drive because i'm a processor, and it's not often that you can get in a place and just think for hours on end. Tonight I was driving the fam to Mobile, AL for Thanksgiving festivities and while everyone slept and i drove i had this really beautiful time with God. I felt like He just came to sit with me and talked with me while i drove and asked Him questions. I don't always "get" life, shocking, i know. There are plenty of times that God doesn't make sense to me, His paths don't make sense either sometimes.
parent tells them, I have something even better. Well that little kid only sees his favorite toy car...maybe the new thing
